There is definitely a personality type out there that I’m running into more and more frequently (especially now that my following has increased on Twitter and Facebook.) This type of person is usually very bright and enjoys bringing up valid, if provocative, points on something that I’ve written or a link that I’ve tweeted.
From the way they’ve worded their response to the topic, it’s more in the form of a challenge. It’s occasionally a little on the rude side. It’s clear they’re looking for me to debate the topic.
And I’ll write back and just agree that I can see where someone would share their point of view and leave it at that.
When I agree that a person has a valid viewpoint, an argument is usually defused.
So, recently, a gentleman disagreed with something that I’d tweeted (regarding a post I hadn’t written, but that I’d shared.)
As usual, I wrote back and mildly said that I could see where someone might share his opinion (being, as I always do, careful not to state my own opinion.)
He wrote me back: “It’s not as much fun when you won’t argue the point!”
Do any of us benefit from getting into arguments or debates on Twitter, Facebook, or any other forum?
Here’s why I won’t take the bait:
I know there is more than one way to look at an issue.
I don’t like confrontation.
Something that starts out on the friendly side can deteriorate.
I have more to lose than I have to gain.
I don’t have time to argue.
I don’t care enough to argue.
It doesn’t matter to me if I’m right or not.
There is no way I will come out looking good from an argument.
I don’t gain anything from being argumentative.
Words live forever online.
I’ve heard several stories from authors that they had an email from their publisher over a political position the writer took on their blog or an ill-advised argument they had online. I have no desire to get in hot water with my publishers. In some ways I represent them, too.
Do I really want, ten or twenty years from now, my kids to be able to access a pointless argument I had online when I was having a bad day? Or my grandchildren even? This stuff stays out there.
One of the reasons I’m blogging and active in the online community is because I’m interested in hearing a variety of different approaches and ideas from different writers. In fact, I really want to be saturated with these ideas, because that’s how I grow.
So I won’t take the bait—I’m more interested in hearing your argument than in being right.
Have you ever gotten baited online? (I’ll admit to hoping for a ‘yes’ answer because I’m starting to think it’s just me!)
I figure my blog is where I can state my opinion, but I try to be fair, and balanced when I do a political type post.
I wrote about health care several times as it was being debated last year, and I got hate mail! I had to shut down my comments for a couple of day, there was so much! It kind of freaked my out, so I went back to normal posts to let it all calm down.
There were a few commenters, neither of whom agreed with my point of view but disagreed with each other, and they used my comments section as their personal battle ground. It was a wild and crazy topic! I announced that this topic was now off the table, they all disappeared and I went back to my 10 commenters a day.
Yes it has happened to me a couple of times. I’m like you, can’t stand confrontation esp with strangers. The few times it happened was with a post I had written on the Celery Tree blog. The responders were very nice, just kept arguing these points over and over, even continuing onward in email. Finally it ended and I was extremely grateful that the people taking issue were gracious and courteous in their responses because it could have been a really unpleasant experience otherwise.
I had an incident on Facebook with a friend’s post regarding President Obama. Our comments were friendly exchanges in favor of the man (with no mention of politics) but another person kept adding nasty remarks, which we just ignored.
But when it comes to the topic of writing, I believe it is important to make statements, pro or con, and take a stand. Then, when someone disagrees, it can either become a friendly debate or an education for one person who then changes a particular way of thinking.
The gentleman in your example may have just wanted that friendly debate. :)
We’ve all seen people who are not happy unless they can be debating or arguing their points.
I’m no fun either. I don’t take the bait. I pick my “battles”. I won’t debate every thing that comes my way. To me, it’s a waste of my time and energy.
Elizabeth – Oh, yes, I have been “baited” a couple of times. I do exactly as you do, which is to say that I usually “tell” the person that I can see their point (without outlining my own views). Most of the time, the person who “baits” me just wanted to be heard. Most of the time that’s enough.
I run into this in my classes, too. I’ve had students who were really just experimenting with ideas and argumentation and baited me because of it. You learn, as you say, not to take the bait…
I would respond exactly the way you do, Elizabeth, if I were tweeting and doing the Facebook thing and someone questioned or challenged what I wrote. It’s not just you.
Karen
Elizabeth,
Do you ever read John Scalzi’s Whatever blog? Part of his plan is to create discussion about politics, writing, and current events. But he has a philosophy/journalism background and clearly enjoys a good debate. He wields what he calls the Mallet of Loving Correction ;-) to get rid of any comments he feels cross the line. I think he also does try to keep things fair and civil in his own comments unless he feels the person has abdicated their right to it.
I imagine it takes up a good chunk of his time, but it is how he has made a name for himself and I think he must enjoy it.
It’s an interesting tactic, but I’m like you, non-confrontational. In fact I will probably save this link as a reminder of how to deal with these things.
Thanks!
I agree. Sometimes it’s best to just drop the point. You never know when someone can take one line you say and use it out of context.
CD
This is golden and should be the rule of thumb involving Internet exchanges. Internet anonymity often leaves people thinking they can do or say anything, but they forget the human element. I agree 100% with what you have to say here and thank you for putting it into words.
I strive to keep the hot topics off my pages. So far, I haven’t had anyone confront me, and although I’ve seen a lot of posts I disagree with, I do think about the backlash, so I click away rather than leave a comment that could be construed as confrontational rather than opinion.
Terry
Terry’s Place
Romance with a Twist–of Mystery
I haven’t experienced this with my blog, but I have been involved in online chats about writing when one particular person seemed determined to start an argument over even the smallest comment.
The first time it happened, I thought maybe I had missed something earlier in the chat that had annoyed this person. But after attending several of these, I realized this person is simply looking for an argument, not a friendly debate or exchange of ideas.
It must be exhausting to constantly search out conflict.
I have mixed experiences with online discussions. A good discussion can be entertaining, but very often the anonymity on the internet makes people turn into rude maniacs.
Some time ago, I was involved in online discussions regarding the 2nd amendment. I don’t like handguns, and had opinions that many found provocative. When people started to send me statements like “try to come and take my gun and I’ll cut your head off” and “you’re a stupid European asshole”, I found that online discussions are just a waste of time. I enjoy debates, but not when it ends up in pure harassment.
Cold As Heaven
This sounds like a great plan. Don’t feed the trolls and all that. Haven’t been baited yet, but I try to avoid anything controversial on my blog for the same reason.
Afraid I’ve taken the bait before. That’s why I try to let something sit a while before I respond.
Some people really do like to argue though! My cousin is like that – super genius, liberal, and master debater – and he likes to throw things out just to get a response. We’ve learned to say “That’s your opinion” and leave it at that. Drives him nuts we won’t argue!
Yeah, I made the mistake once. Once. But never again. SOme people try to make themselves look good by trying to make you look bad. So I stay away from this type of back and forth banter.
Well, I have got baited in a newspaper discussion some years ago. I was involved in local politics so I could hardly back off and pretend I didn´t mean what I had said so I ran into a long, heated discussion – until the newspaper mercifully stopped the discussion. But that man attacked my husband and my family, and afterwards he sent letters to my private address, accusing me of being a horrible vicar´s wife – because we disagreed on politics!
But like you, I usually stay clear of discussions unless it is something that really matters (e.g. faith or family – but hardly crime writing).
I was baited once on my blog and I did take the bait. Unfortunately for him, I had the better part of the argument however, I let him persue it. Because in my opinion he was just being stupid. I knew I was right. He tried to prove me wrong and when he couldn’t he was the one who looked like a jerk.
It might have been nasty of me to do, but don’t press me when I’m right. I will always make you look wrong.
Karen–It’s a good thing that the commenters on your blog acted with such restraint! I’ve heard some horror stories out there…
Gail–You did well to ignore the person who kept popping in and interrupting your discussion. :)
I think you’re right–this particular gentleman I think really just wanted to have a friendly debate. I think, for me, my sense of self-preservation is so strong and I’m so uncertain where people are coming from that I play it super safe.
Travelin’Oma–That worries me, too! I’ve seen that happen before…where the commenters sort of take over the blog and the fact that it’s hosted by a writer (who might not even have intended the path of the discussion) makes it look like the writer sanctioned it. Sounds like you handled it well!
Jill–Yes, I’ve read it and really respect him. He posts on topics that would scare me to death to post on and handles it so professionally and well. Great role model for all of us!
Clarissa–Good point–taking our comments out of context. So it could even get worse just by twisting our words.
Nikki–You’ve put it well–I think when we’re interacting through a computer, that some can forget that there’s a human on the other end. It’s almost like road rage–when people get so mad at the unknown people in the other car.
Dawn–I’ve been there, too. And even when I’ve realized that they seem to have misread something or took something out of context…I just don’t bother correcting them. Because that might make them more upset!
I can’t honestly imagine having enough hours in the day to look for fights. There’s just no time, even if I had the interest.
Teresa–We’re no fun at all! Ha!
Cold As Heaven–Yes, I think the anonymity is an issue, for sure. Conflict from a distance and with nothing to lose.
Oh, I can only imagine the kinds of responses you probably got! Yeah, I keep away from all that stuff (obviously.) So many different opinions out there on things and I just don’t want to be caught up in it. And…I’m Generation X. We’re known for our detachment. :)
Margot–You know, it’s funny–for me it’s either very young people who bait me, or much older people. And nearly always males. I guess my fellow middle-aged crowd are too busy getting run over by life to do this kind of stuff. :) I can totally see college students doing it because they’re in an environment that encourages debate.
Elena–I read someone’s blog yesterday…a writer with a big publisher that wrote a book that I guess *could* be taken as controversial. She mentioned all the anonymous stabs she was getting on Twitter. Seemed very hurt by it, of course. I think there are definitely people who enjoy it.
Diane–Yes! We have someone like that in our circle, too. It’s impossible to win an argument and I usually try not to make waves anyway.
Stephen–Me too. Makes me feel anxious.
Karen–And I hope you don’t have to go through it. :)
Anne–I can’t blame you…some things get under my skin, too. The number of times a day I end up gritting my teeth is really getting scary! I probably should get my blood pressure checked.
My blog is based on my academic work so I have no choice but to defend my point of view (very rarely, when I’ve been caught out in a factual error – because it’s a blog, not my doctoral dissertation! – I hold my hands up and correct the entry. But usually, whether it’s a factual quibble or an opinion, I really have to defend what I’ve written). I do get such a sinking feeling when I see a provocative comment though.
You’re a class act, Elizabeth. I think walking away when somebody is rudely challenging is VERY hard. You’re right on ALL of your arguments and i will definitely try to follow your guidelines. I know, though, that I don’t always have an easy time. I certainly don’t have your grace about it.
I try to stay away from hot button issues, but do state opinions in my blog posts and ask readers to share theirs. Not because I want to debate, but because as you say, there is more than one way to look at an issue. And in my experience, if we’re willing to listen, we’ll learn far more from those who don’t agree with us than from those who do.
But once a discussion elevates into a debate or argument, all is lost. Whether the interaction is respectful or not, the point shifts from learning to going for the win.
To my knowledge, I’ve not been baited. But I spent many years in the “real world” defusing arguments, so perhaps I’m oblivious. If I were baited, I hope I would handle it as gracefully as you have.
Our freedom to express our opinion does not give us the right to disrespect another’s.
I don’t like confrontation and no one wins an arguement anyway.
Juliett–Oh yes…that sinking feeling. I just look at whatever comment I’ve gotten and think, “Oh no. Now what?”
Hart–Thanks! :) I’m not sure it’s as much grace on my end as a real personal discomfort with confrontation…and a strong sense of self-preservation. I think always, *always* I’m worried that I’m going to shoot myself in the foot one of these days. And the proof will stay online….forever! I think it’s that fear that keeps me cautious. Plus–we just have so much to lose. Sometimes a reputation (there’s one author who comes to mind), a career, a friendship…readers. It gives me the willies just thinking about it.
VR Barkowski–I love opinions because, especially with the writing process, there are so many different approaches. Hearing others’ approaches gives me food for thought and helps me grow, I think. You’re so right…there’s a line that sometimes gets crossed with some folks. There’s a need to provoke and it just makes everything go downhill quickly.
Alex–That’s the way I feel, too…no winners in these types of confrontations.
YES and I second everything you said, including all your reasons not to take the bait. Some people seem to have more time on their hands than I could ever dream of.
The “challengers” are second on my list only to what I call info-remoras who write to say they are interested in my work and would I please send them all my files !?!
Otherwise I adore hearing from readers and almost always reply.
I agree that there is not a single winner in an online argument and I try not to engage.
However, my politics are all over the place – socially more liberal and fiscally more conservative – and I am surrounded by those who LOVE to engage. Often. And in very loud CAPS.
One of my dearest friends (VERY liberal) and my own brother (VERY conservative) have been sparring with each other for weeks on Facebook. Do either of them really think they will change the other’s mind??
I don’t believe they do, but they are both enjoying their daily rants. I am starting to think they are going to jump in the car someday and drive across the five states that separate each other just to have a face-to-face spar-in.
I’m with you and I stay out of it but it is quite curious to me.
I have no desire to get in hot water with my publishers. In some ways I represent them, too.
Another data point in favor of going indie. :-)
I know what you mean, I don’t like confrontation. But all my in-laws thrive on it, so I’ve had to develop avoidance mechanisms just to cope. (For example, large quantities of alcohol aka in-law survival sauce. Kidding, partially.) I’ve rarely been baited online, and never on my blog (yet). I do have a comment policy saying that I’ll delete off-topic rants, but to date I’ve never invoked it.
One thing that’s worked for me is to identify what kinds of flamebait I might run into and figure out how to respond in advance. Know what I’m going to do means I can do it without letting emotions getting in the way… and intemperate responses are what they’re fishing for.
Yes – but not on any big scale. I try to use the same kind of attitude that you do. I don’t enjoy arguing either.
Terry–Well, we all know you, though! It’s funny, but the people that have approached me in a way that seemed challenging are all people that I’m really not acquainted with…so I just don’t have a grip on where they’re coming from.
Linda–Oh sure–send them all your documents. Ha! I haven’t gotten any of those, but I can only imagine. My typical spammy email is usually from some foreign government (I’ve won many windfalls) or else from businesses that want me to put ads on my blog (which, to me, would be just as bad as if I expressed opinions on my blog…an ad implies my endorsement.)
Jen–I think that some people REALLY enjoy it. And they’re not trying to be ugly or cause trouble or make waves–they just thrive on debate. My problem is that I can’t really get a handle on which are the ones who just enjoy lively debate (which I’m actually horrid at anyway!) and which are the ones who are looking for a fight. It would be so nice if there was some sort of sign!
FARfetched–That’s a definite point! I guess a comparison would be working for a corporation vs being self-employed. There are benefits and pitfalls to both.
Ha! Inlaw survival sauce! I love it. :)
Detachment would definitely be easier when you’re prepared, that’s for sure!
Dorte–There’s no choice when you’re involved in politics! That would definitely be part of the job description…and why I’ve carefully avoided serving! Some of us are definitely more gifted in that area than others. Your experience is a scary one…actually, sounds like something you could use in one of your books! So sorry you had to go through it, though. That’s rotten.
I like healthy respectful debate. I am not afraid of confrontation – I’m more likely to get in trouble because I mean something in a positive connecting way and it is taken as criticism. Or I run someone over with my bus of good intentions. I’m more careful on line than I used to be but mainly because things can too easily get out of hand. I’ve been tossed off of forums back in the day because I wouldn’t join in a pity party and yes it was a writer’s forum. I simply didn’t get the culture at that point – now I stay off writers’ forums that encourage victim-hood and if I come up against it other places I take a wide berth. I don’t enter the arena.
Yes, I’ve been baited online, and I took the bait and was rude.
Fast forward 10+ years. A local publisher emailed me, offering to publish the work I’d been presenting. Then I got a follow-up email from the publisher’s partner/wife who was–yes–the person to whom I had been rude. The offer of publication was withdrawn, because she told her husband I wouldn’t be a good person to work with.
Lesson learned, but at least I got a chance to apologize for an exchange I’d felt bad about for years.
Marian Allen
Good for you! I am a lot like you. I don’t people criticizing me so I try to avoid criticizing them.
Jan–Forums are definitely different, aren’t they? I’ll admit that I’m a lurker in forums. I get so much information and industry gossip there (knowing that gossip isn’t always true, of course), but I think the interacting can sometimes get a little overwhelming for me.
I was especially interested in what you had to say about this, Jan–I think you’re always such an ethical person, but with your professional training I knew you would be interested in talking through confrontation.
Marian–Ohhhh no! You know, I can so easily see how that could happen. I’m so sorry it happened to you, but it’s good that you had a chance to apologize and put it behind you–and to share your cautionary tale.
cygnetbrown–Exactly. I really do think there can be an exchange of ideas without things getting critical.
Jemi–I’m thinking you would handle it all well, though–your teaching background.
Yes I have but my responses are vague like yours, lol. Now I just avoid it all together. Like you said, this blog stuff stays out there!
Laura–If it’s *really* bad, I just ignore it, too, figuring that any response will just make the person more upset.
On rare, rare occasions I’ve had to “pull the plug” on posts. The controversies don’t bother me as much as those who toss their nasty-grams into the mix. Their “fame” on my virtual real estate is short-lived.
I do write notes of apology to other posters whose words have been jettisoned into the ether. I’d rather remove an entire post than continue the argument “in public”.
I have been baited a lot online (though not as blatently as that man’s comment), but have learnt not to take the bait. People often miss your point, because they are so busy defending theirs, and I can do without all that negativity in my life.